| 1:15 | |
| 1:19 | - I'm from the creative team.
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| 1:22 | - So basically, what I do is conceptualize, also, for designs and even illustrations.
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| 1:37 | - So basically we just get them together to recover a textbook.
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| 1:52 | |
| 1:53 | - So looking at a little bit more, maybe perhaps even pre-MCE. Could you share a little bit more about your experience?
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| 1:59 | |
| 2:00 | - Yeah, so a little in my teaching career, I was a teacher myself. I was working as a curriculum developer at the Singapore Institute of Technology (SIT).
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| 2:11 | - So that involves designing curriculum, delivering and bridging math courses for the undergrads.
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| 2:21 | - So of course, prior to joining Marshall Cavendish, I was also a full-time international teacher, school teacher, teaching middle as well as high school physics and mathematics.
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| 2:32 | - I specialized in teaching the IGCSE, the IB as well as the OS math curriculum. And I'm familiar with the range of textbooks as well as teaching materials in the market.
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| 2:45 | - So I think, you know, moving from International School, coming to MCE seems like the right thing for me.
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| 2:53 | - I felt, you know, it is actually helping to utilize my strengths in terms of my past teaching experience and then going into publishing where I think, you know, I can lend my teaching experience to crafting and creating new textbooks for the market.
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| 3:15 | - I think this is especially important because this would help to address the ever-changing needs of school teachers as well As for students.
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| 3:23 | - As we know, you know, the education landscape is always fast, fast evolving and it's something that we need, you know, to always upskill and at the same time, you know, to make sure that it stays relevant for the users out there.
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| 3:42 | - So I felt that my entire experience has now come to a full circle.
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| 3:46 | |
| 3:49 | - My experience I think is about 26, 27 years. OK. A lot of so-called fields that I've been through.
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| 4:00 | - So the first one, I think it's even management. I did magazines, I did advertising, and the last one, was educational publishing.
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| 4:14 | - So most of the years I think is quite fruitful and I learned a lot from all these fields.
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| 4:21 | - So I began in education just long ago, everything, what I experienced. I think that really helps the kids and in terms of design experience.
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| 4:42 | |
| 4:43 | - So coming from, let's say, coming from being a teaching, coming from the advertising or even the magazine world, right. How was it your how was your first experience in, you know, taking that first few steps in understanding your role in a whole series of a textbook?
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| 5:00 | - What was your experience then?
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| 5:01 | - Do you think we should start coming first?
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| 5:03 | - OK, my experience, my experience, first experience when I started doing textbooks. Right. OK, this is back I think about 20 years, 20 years ago when I, I was freelance, I think in house designer back in MC.
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| 5:28 | - Last time was not MC. I think I forgot what was.
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| 5:34 | |
| 5:35 | - So, so basically I just came, you know, people from advertising, usually there's a different, different types of software that use or the tools for designing.
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| 5:47 | - So when I came then I was like, there's no ideas what software I'm going to use. Photoshop, Illustrator, freehand. Last time was really bad in my mind.
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| 5:56 | - So I was like, OK, it's cool. When I came in, they said, are we going to use InDesign for the tools?
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| 6:02 | - I was like InDesign. What's that?
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| 6:06 | - So so basically I was like, OK, OK, let's try. When I start using, hey, it's totally different.
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| 6:15 | - So last time it was my seniors. like, Anwar Ahmad. He's been very helpful.
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| 6:24 | - So doing work and even like train myself using the software. So it's quite fruitful and even a challenge for me.
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| 6:37 | - So rushing for deadlines and even exploring the tools. Get down for that. I get hang of it then.
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| 6:49 | - Well, yeah. The rest of history. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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| 6:55 | |
| 6:57 | - Yeah, I think, you know, coming from the teaching in the International School to publishing, educational publishing was actually quite a big shock to me because, you know, although when as a teacher would use the textbook, you don't actually see all the effort, the time, the, the a lot of things that go into designing, you know, Kamil designing and even writing the textbook.
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| 7:23 | - So to me, that became quite a shocker to me. My first title, if I'm not mistaken, like, you know, the, the ones that you see there, the IGCSE, Cambridge, IGCSEICT, Computer science.
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| 7:38 | - This was the first title that I worked on. And it's also something that, you know, has made it very memorable because to be honest, I don't exactly I would profess, I'm not the ICT computer science train, but I'm, I'm, I'm a math teacher, math and physics teacher.
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| 8:01 | - So to me, there was a steep learning curve, you know, in terms of, oh, how does publishing actually work? Because I was not from the publishing background And how, you know, how do we translate whatever, you know, authors write into a textbook?
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| 8:16 | - I think this was the initial shock and, you know, the experience of being able to hate or to to, to conceptualize such a textbook. And because that was what.
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| 8:26 | - But I was someone who's not shrinking away from the challenge. I relish the challenge. I want to make sure that it is something that I can do well.
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| 8:39 | - So I took it on and I'm so happy that, you know, this actually worked out for me because otherwise, you know, it wouldn't have this textbook here.
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| 8:48 | - Now, I agree because if you if you hadn't taken the challenge, then we will not have probably the same contributions on the book will probably look a lot different.
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| 8:57 | |
| 8:58 | - So given the stark jump from, you know, different industries and coming to education itself, could you share a little bit more about the perception from your friends and family?
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| 9:09 | - I think initially they were like, oh, wow, this is such a different, you know, transition and and it's like a stark contrast to what you've been doing teaching and now you are actually, you know, producing the same books that you have been using or have been trying to use as a teacher.
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| 9:26 | - Easy. So I think they were initially a bit apprehensive. Are you sure you can do it? That's one other thing it's they were actually still, although apprehensive, but quite supportive and quite encouraging because of the fact that they know that, you know, it's kind of like something that's related.
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| 9:45 | - You are still contributing to the society. You're still making a difference in terms of the role of education. You're giving back and the.
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| 9:54 | - I think the only cripe they had after that was got enough money. Do you make enough money to leave comfort? I think that's the other thing.
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| 10:03 | - But I think generally they were quite happy, you know, because I mean, ultimately I have the eldest in the family and we all have different, we pursue different careers. So I think having the variety in the family is actually good.
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| 10:18 | |
| 10:20 | |
| 10:22 | - For me, it's totally negative. So my SO first thing is, my friends, you sure that you want to go educational? Why you going to teach them? There was like why from from advertising or advertising designers is like anything, anything goes right.
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| 10:45 | - Then was like long hair last time was like image doesn't like really you had long hair like like its not really educational.
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| 10:56 | - So I was like, then my, my family first, my sister was in education publishing. So, so she's the one who brought me into education. So, so it's OK, it's your opportunity. So let's let's let's try that.
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| 11:11 | - The first was like this limitation. So limitation, there's a lot of you cannot do that. You cannot do this. Then I was like, So what I'm going to do, man?
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| 11:24 | - So I was like, OK, let's do research. So research, research, research and four years and then then it's OK, it's OK. Then after I, I have to change my image, I was like, OK, OK, this is, I'm going to stop here and just do education publishing.
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| 11:41 | - So, so that's where I start researching self and then I'll see what's popularity or even career aspects from from there. That's my experience actually, based on, you know, the topics that you've worked on or based on your own personal preferences.
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| 12:01 | - What is that one subject that you're most fond of? Perhaps we started carrying?
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| 12:07 | - I definitely, it's mathematics. This is something that, you know, this is a subject that I've enjoyed since I was a kid and so much so that I have even represented my school or even like what JC in the Math Olympiad.
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| 12:24 | - Yeah. And that that's, I'm very proud of that because, you know, I did win some awards, medal, and at the same time, I eventually became a math teacher.
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| 12:34 | - Yeah. So I mean, math being a logical or rational subject is something that resonates with me. But however, I also enjoy music, which is also a little strange because it's more music is a more creative kind of process, a little bit more irrational.
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| 12:50 | - And that's also something that I have done when I was young. So I played a piano and I also pursued all the usual, you know, exams, APR SM.
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| 13:02 | - I ended up doing some performances. I also played in gigs or even in pop and also did no demo. Is that teaching? No demos. No demos? Have, Have
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| 13:13 | - Oh. Are you on SoundCloud, Gary?
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| 13:16 | - Yeah. I wish. I wish I did. I did. I'm actually with Compass, so I'm not there.
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| 13:23 | - Oh, yeah. So I think you know what? The big mix like Big Lee and Jeremy Montero and whoever? Yeah, they are all there.
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| 13:29 | - So yeah. I'm also a member, right? Yeah.
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| 13:34 | - Any hidden bands for you, Kamil?
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| 13:36 | - Oh, mine. OK for me how about how about what's your generally your favourite subject and maybe even have favourite subjects.
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| 13:47 | - My favourite subject is maths actually. Actually its I do feel its OK, but I I, I do tons of maths books but its not actually favourite.
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| 14:02 | - So actually I do have a favourite so-called subject or even a title. It was iScience I think. I think we stopped doing that, so that's why I miss doing that.
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| 14:17 | - So basically it's like we're hectic when we're hectic, we're using our laying out our textbooks after that last time, this was OK. I mean, take one of the feature pages that's a spread.
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| 14:33 | - Then after that, at least that's that's like something getting out from the the stiff or or what? Then if they you have relaxed, then you can play around with the layouts and white glass. You should want to put just whack whack whack.
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| 14:47 | - After that you come back and you feel refreshed. Then you feel that thing that OK, it's it's so-called reset you from from design. Then after that you like fill up your creative juice.
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| 15:01 | - Yeah. So that's that's how coming going on to that point, right.
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| 15:08 | - So then when we look at or we zone in into creating a textbooks. Could you both perhaps share with me like the some of the key activities that goes on when he talks about when we talk about working on the content and it sounds for itself the visual design.
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| 15:20 | - So we perhaps we'll start to carry.
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| 15:22 | - Yeah. So I think, you know, when we talk about the key activities, there are, there are certain things that, you know, as a, we work as a team, obviously.
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| 15:32 | - So there are for, for my part, the acquisitions part, typically we conceptualize, we visualize how the textbook, how the contents will be represented on the textbook.
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| 15:43 | - We we, we kind of like make sure that oh, OK, it's appealing to the readers, the teachers, it makes sense not picking up textbook and say, how come this is at this point, this is at this point.
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| 15:54 | - And then it doesn't, you know, there's no flow in terms of the content. There's no flow in terms of the visuals. It doesn't make sense. So we we need to bear that in mind and yeah, yeah.
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| 16:13 | - So usually what we do is we do a sample chapter. Sample chapter. Of course we, I have my corporate dot folder, which is like, you know, that that is a team leader or the team TB editor that comes in.
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| 16:25 | - We would kind of bounce ideas together, make sure that it's coherent. Then whatever art briefs, whatever, you know, things that needs to be in on the page. We put it nicely.
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| 16:36 | - We give it to come in. Yeah, the designer. And then they were kind of like, you know, OK, this is what the acquisitions or the editorial team wants.
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| 16:48 | - And he will try to, you know, we try to collaborate and make sure that our ideas are In Sync, making sure that, oh, the final product is what we actually want.
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| 16:57 | - I think at the end of the day, we just want to make sure it is something that's useful, something that meets the needs of our users, our teachers and students and making learning meaningful and joyful as well.
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| 17:12 | - We agree. I think in all aspects of what we doing as organization, I think that has always been our focal point.
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| 17:19 | - And for yourself, could it help? Once you know the workload has passed on, we passed on to your team, what is the process then?
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| 17:25 | - OK, the process actually. OK, so it comes to me first. I'll think of the other directions, choose of illustrations, choices of fonts and some elements and even colours.
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| 17:41 | - So what comes to me is like, OK, it's the mood board. It's the mood board first. OK, Mood board means that it's not like This is why I want and that's it. No, we have to go to immigrations.
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| 17:57 | - Immigrations means like my boss. So, So once you say OK, OK, then after that, yes, then we proceed.
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| 18:10 | - That's only for the mood boards, OK, the mood boards there for that we have elements in, in, in the layout. Usually my boss call it a pitch furniture, the tables, the chairs and even right.
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| 18:24 | - So from there, so choices of illustrations. So whether we do in house, we get our partners to do it. So from there, then we start doing the layout, start with the layout, then we have to go through another immigration.
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| 18:43 | - So that's the pause. So, so once OK, that's for sample pages. No, you haven't take flat yet. That's only for example, some of the pages is OK then OK, we just let's say we can do in house or we gonna get our partners to do it.
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| 19:00 | - So let's say we just think for detailed it, we have our partners to do it. Yes, they're they're they're working around the clocks and, and, and it's quite good experience working How many months?
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| 19:16 | - Six months? Yeah, at least six months. Yeah, it was like 6 books in nine months. So it was like then after that again after approvals and all it's done, layouts done then the covers.
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| 19:31 | - So the covers I, I would have to like, you know, provide what we call cover brief. So it kind of like informs the design team, what's the direction, what kind of visuals are on?
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| 19:45 | - How is this going to look like? Is it going to be age appropriate? Is it going to be something that, you know, the, the uses the students especially, is it appealing?
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| 19:56 | - Does this actually, you know, communicate the idea like for instance, I work on the digital literacy project to this and computing. So this is something that is very close to me, you know, and I, I'm, I was so happy how it turned out because, you know, when I actually went down to speak to the school teachers, not just in Singapore, in fact overseas, so.
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| 20:21 | - We do travel a lot just to hear from the users and from the school principals and so on and so forth, right in different countries. And they were all very positive. You know, it's something that is cute.
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| 20:34 | - It especially for this because it's for the primary students. So they they welcome and they were very appreciative of this and it was something that was definitely missing in the market.
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| 20:46 | - So, yeah, if you look at the other so-called publishers, the kind of books they publish, especially the UK publishers, usually it's quite very same traditional, I would say traditional and maybe perhaps a little not so appealing.
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| 21:03 | - Not fun. Yeah. Not fun. Yeah. I think learning has to be fun. That's true.
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| 21:08 | - Coming back to that element of fun right now, I noticed that in our one of our books, we have the main character of the group board. Was that in part of your book board as well?
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| 21:20 | - Yes. So basically, OK, I think I have introduced 5 five types of robots. It's totally different. It's totally, it's not like 5 robots with same style.
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| 21:35 | - No, it's five different families of robots. So basically I say OK, yeah, I don't want this. I just say if you create one for me from the partners, so the partners came out this from there, then make a tweet.
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| 21:50 | - Yeah. So therefore that come out this original theater of the mascots. I guess for me, even as an adult, I would be drawn to giving this to children because he has that key focal identity that follows them along.
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| 22:04 | - And that's one unique nature of our textbooks. I think even if my pals are here or our other series, you know, there's always that focal few characters that teaches them the different topics and they go along.
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| 22:16 | - So they have familiarity and there's also trust built upon the textbooks because they have that key focal identity point. I think I think that's that's that's the idea to get the kids to attach to the mascots while they're growing up.
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| 22:32 | - But usually after that secondary well, the the mascots like stop growing up. Then after that, that's sure.
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| 22:42 | - I think we've the older ones, it's more so ensuring that they understand the information rather than getting them to light the subject in their while we always say that, you know, we try to make things as interesting as interactive, I think with the amount of content, there's always that emphasis on understanding the content.
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| 23:01 | - But even when you try to understand content, then you look further into like illustrations and how you look at the grouse, how you kind of visually make sure that you know, it's easy to understand.
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| 23:11 | - And it's also simply so I mean, perhaps for me, there will be the one key observation summarizing everything. What would be that one key factor that you have to include in order to make sure that in your in your experience, of course, and in your opinion, that one key factor that if you include you know that this has this will be like a successful series altogether.
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| 23:33 | - Press start coming. OK Facebook marketplace. No, really, why?
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| 23:43 | - OK, where is this going? So basically, so basically research, research, research is so-called. What do you say? It's the key focal point.
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| 23:57 | - So the team and say, let's say what's the team? We have to do our research our own what what we need to do. So once we research come to our table or even our board, then after that we see OK, so I think this is good, this is good, this is good.
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| 24:16 | - After that, hey, maybe these illustrations are not suitable, maybe you can tweak a bit. Yeah. So I think that's the best. It's good to have that.
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| 24:27 | - The the The thing is that communication, you know, in WhatsApp, sometimes it's like trophy and you've got this good idea. Hey, you want to say shelf AM? Come on.
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| 24:43 | - Yeah, that tomorrow day after that, we come in and we discuss. Then we don't stress ourself. Yeah. And the jokes just just get the food going on.
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| 24:56 | - And yeah, that's, that's the so writing on what come and say, I think the research, but I think it's more to the findings and the results from the research.
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| 25:08 | - So for us acquisitions, we do a lot of market research surveys. We find out exactly what the users want or even need. And we also find out if there's actually a gap in the market because, you know, typically how how is this series going to be successful is when we actually identify what is it that the customers really need.
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| 25:36 | - I mean, back then we also didn't know that iPhone is actually a need output, right? So, yeah. And, and so, so similarly, like for the digital literacy, we didn't know that was a need, but we do know from the research, a lot of schools, they say, oh, we want a holistic education.
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| 25:56 | - We want students to be able to use the computers, to be able to do, you know, certain word processing. But there's nothing like that to teach my students. And a lot of the teachers, the principals, you know what they do.
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| 26:11 | - Can I, you teach what art or you teach chemistry or you teach some, you know, unrelated subject. OK, now teach your student how to type. So, so it becomes kind of like strange, Yeah, mismatch, mismatch.
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| 26:27 | - And, you know, and, and the teachers don't have that knowledge and skill to to impart to the students. So because of that, we say that, hey, this is some gap or this is something that we felt is necessary.
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| 26:43 | - And we strive to plug this gap, make sure that we have something for them. Yeah, pivoting a little bit when you know, I think Gary, you've touched us before where we we travel a lot to other countries and we also have our inner few countries.
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| 27:00 | - We've recently celebrated, you know being 57 years close to 60 already and we've been in over or reaches over 100 countries. And we've also customized over 17 different languages and having worked with, you know, so many different other ministries, for example, or even other teams.
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| 27:19 | - Could you share maybe one of the key key factors or key things that you've noticed that are important when looking at or when customizing it for foreign markets, like in terms of even visual and content?
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| 27:30 | - Yeah, I think when we look at the books we produce locally as well as in foreign countries, I think kind of like not just visually, but even the the the content wise, there are certain differences.
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| 27:45 | - We, we know that the cultural sensitivity, the, the, you know, when we need to look at a particular country or a particular market, we, we, we need to bear that in mind. Make sure that, you know, at least we understand their culture, their context, whether is it even in terms of the currency that they use, even if it's the religion, you know, we have to be very respectful.
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| 28:13 | - And there are also certain visuals, you know, things that animals that we have to avoid using. And OK, that that's just for the content bit. But the other thing we also realize is that, you know, in terms of the way the subject is being taught.
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| 28:33 | - So I think sometimes there's also a difference in terms of the pedagogy, in terms of the style of teaching and learning. So we, we also recognize that we need to reconcile and make sure that we, we cater for that or sometimes even for certain markets, certain countries, they look towards Singapore because, you know, Singapore ultimately we are one of the top performers in the teams and bizarre, right?
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| 28:58 | - So they say that, hey, wow, you're Singapore mats or Singapore signs or you know, it's so impressive. How did you do that? So they actually look towards us to provide consultation or provide advice.
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| 29:12 | - So in certain cases, we also do customize, but at the same time we imbue or we infuse the Singapore methodology, making sure that the users can also enjoy or, or you know, the, the and learn how we actually, you know, teach the subject.
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| 29:29 | - So I think in, in a way, I'm very fortunate. And of course, you know, I'm, we are very fortunate that, you know, Singapore has managed to become one of the contributors in terms of education that is taking place in parts of the world.
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| 29:49 | - Yeah. Just to add on to what carries. So basically for the visuals and even the designs, Right. OK. Cultural sensitivity you have to take. So Indonesia, no aliens.
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| 30:04 | - Oh, OK, that's interesting. And Singapore, if you do Malay books, no docs. Yeah. Yeah.
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| 30:10 | - So, so some I don't know which part of it country or you know, that purple colour is sign of date. So I was like, I forgot, I really forgot what which which So then of that even your palm or even your feet, you can really like show.
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| 30:37 | - Yeah, yeah. So that's that's more I think got true. There was also another mention, right, about the geopolitical tension, what India, Pakistan, they are. And we have to be very mindful.
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| 30:51 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. So it must be exact and true. And also we we take into account the the, the friction, right? Basically, right. Yeah, yeah.
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| 31:04 | - I think, I mean, knowing that George, geopolitical or even socio economical or even cultural are elements that we always factor in. I think people don't actually understand the amount of conversations that you have, the amount of like WhatsApp messages you have to read.
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| 31:21 | - There are more emails you have to verify before even including one image inside. So I think it's, I mean, I had like maybe a glimpse or maybe like a small inkling of it.
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| 31:33 | - But hearing this conversation, I think it goes to show the amount of work that she's funneled in and why there's actually a huge team in the editorial just trying to churn out all this and Fact Check it.
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| 31:46 | - And now as we are going along this, you know, work of fact checking content and stuff like that and we've realized that it's no longer just about creating works. We have also started to create in digital resources if partnered with, you know, solution providers outside to ensure that we can learn from them in terms of how do we navigate across the different platforms.
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| 32:10 | - Could you maybe share, you know, what the some considerations when we look at, you know, creating educational content for over the years as we introduce a lot more digital and perhaps AI into our software solutions in that sense, first, we'll start again.
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| 32:28 | - OK, So I think I'll speak again based on this, the digital literacy in computing series that I've worked on. I think this is one of the more unique series for the fact that it's truly blended and you know, it actually has printed digital, you know, blurring the lines.
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| 32:50 | - The reason is because for such a subject, for such a what we are, we, it's a skill based kind of subject. So it's not so much of or whatever you find in the textbook, you read it, you understand students, you know, are required to actually do hands on activities.
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| 33:08 | - And this hands on activities will need to be with the use of a computer. So you would see throughout the pages there will be junctures. There will be places where students would actually do work on the OR do assignments.
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| 33:24 | - They will be typing, they'll be creating designs, they'll be learning, you know, some things like audio recording. So with a, a, a computer device.
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| 33:33 | - And it is also a very interesting because here not only the students, after they're finished doing this, they can actually upload, upload to, you know, the MCA to hub platform. They can get the teachers to actually view what they have submitted.
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| 33:51 | - The teachers can actually create put comments and then they at the same time, you know, it's there were certain instances where you can auto mark. So the question is everything, the feedback, the report, it's all at one place.
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| 34:05 | - I think this is truly like one of its kind and probably one of the only ones that you know, is in the market. So I could say, yes, this is something, you know, that has evolved because back then we didn't think Xbox would be able to do this.
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| 34:21 | - Yeah, it would just be normal. Just really refer, refer, refer. Just say, oh, you do this question, that's it. You do a piece of paper hand in the work. So it has transformed how, you know, teaching and learning has taken all in one.
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| 34:38 | - Exactly. Perhaps even like when we look at content visually, right? How do you then have to navigate? Because back then, like you said, while you do your sample pages, how does that then translate to other forms of educational content, education resources that you've worked on in the past?
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| 34:59 | - Does it change anything in terms of what you do visually? Visually?
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| 35:03 | - Yes. So now last time there's no QR code in pitch layout. So basically now I think like 234 sometimes like a affecting my layout just QR codes fine, just just one big QR code. Just just go to digital and learn from that.
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| 35:23 | - So so basically, yeah, now layout is like, OK, we have to think of it is a blended so-called is a blended blended solution for for kids. So, so the only thing that from from a print to a digital. How is he the kids to navigate from a print to digital?
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| 35:47 | - So QR code also plays a part or even they call it what the markers, the markers, yeah. So you have to take to account, take into account to to to do a layout sometimes.
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| 36:01 | - Well, you do it nicely and it is sorry, sorry, I need to put in the QR code. And I was like, so disruptor, yes, what was like such a good DPS spread, right? Es
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